So... Its been about two months and I haven't heard back from the IOT... I suppose I can assume my application has been rejected. Are there any /x/aos magi out there that are members of IOT or any other semi-disorganization. Should I feel like I'm missing out on personal/spiritual growth or are they just a bunch of arm chair wizards. I'm curious about the Golden Dawn although I'd never join. Does anyone on the board have personal insight (ie not garnered from wikipedia ect.)
No. 10947 - dunkel - October 19th, 2009 - 10:24 AM
OP here, thanks for the response, I'm looking at their site now and may sign up for their forum later on, shall I delete this thread or shall I leave it open for discussion of Magic(k)al organizations?
No. 10951 - Phil Ossiferz Stone - October 19th, 2009 - 5:42 PM
I have a similar experience with the IOT. I never got a response back either. But there's no need to feel like you missed out on anything. You don't need a group to accomplish your goals or practice Chaos Magic. You can do the same thing alone that you could do with them. They only offer different perspectives about things, but you could do that alone or by talking to people online with similar interests. Or if it is that important to you then make your own "group". There's nothing stopping you from finding people similar to you and teaming up.
I've known a couple Thelemites, and been to a couple of their masses. I was, I think, invited to apply to the IOT, but did not (not really officially, but one of their members recommended I consider it).
On the subject of the Thelemic mass: My first thought was "So this is what parents think their kids are doing when they go play D&D." The temple was basement level, and the atmosphere very... Well, I'm not entirely sure I can describe it accurately. It was an interesting series of experiences, and if you can find an open lodge, I recommend attending a mass at least once. As always, beware the fundamentalists; some of them are quite good and can smell other faiths on you a mile away and call you out on it. For reference, lest ye be lynched for saying it wrong in the presence of a fanatic: It is pronounced Crow-lee.
As far as the IOT, I have little to no experience with them or their members. They were engaged in one of the better-known magical infighting incidents called 'The Ice Magick Wars' quite awhile back now. I certainly makes for interesting reading.
My most extensive experience has been with Omnimancy. Tiny little tradition founded by a few pagans in NJ, it's actually been very useful to me. They are, however, very possessive of their teachings for the most part. Perhaps for good reason, but I'm not going to publicize my judgments on that; I know there's plenty of people out there who believe all magickal knowledge should be free to anyone that wants it. Worth having a look at, at least, their forums have a good deal of info.
Thee Temple Ov Thee Psychick Yovth (TOPY) aroused my interest awhile back when I was first getting into the occult practices. I don't know a whole lot about them outside of their 'initiation ritual' (involves sending a sigil in to their HQ).
Something I've been trying to do lately is get a fix on local pagan groups, chat them up and learn a bit from them. My background is decidedly non-pagan, and some of the more fundamentalist pagans seem to shun me because of this; like practicing the occult arts without being pagan is sacrilege. Anyone else have similar experiences?
I have to agree with Illuminatus, though; Most anything you can do with people you can do without, and volunteers and walls off which you can bounce ideas are all over the internet, and maybe even locally.
>>12465 > some of the more fundamentalist pagans seem to shun me because of this; like practicing the occult arts without being pagan is sacrilege.
It's more difficult to get into public office in America if you're not a Christian, too. Makes sense if you think about it; a persecuted minority religion thinks it's got a hold of a power source the majority has forsaken... you want to tell them to share indiscriminately? Those in power wouldn't do it, as they don't with political power. It's just not in anyone's interest to do so, which is probably why
> all magickal knowledge should be free to anyone that wants it.
will never be anything more than a fringe idea promoted by those without much in the way of magickal knowledge. Thought experiment: you get the superpowers of any non-godlike Marvel comics character, but then the powersets of every other character (including the godlike ones) get randomly distributed amongst the members of /b/. Scared? That's what we're talking about here.
[purely hypothetical] This dynamic will be important in any actual occult organization: if you want to retain your autonomy you'd be better off avoiding the groups. On the other hand, if you can catch the attention of a real occult group, you're more likely to learn something useful. What is more important to you? And when I say "real occult group" I'm not talking about any of the ones mentioned in this thread so far. If you've heard of it, it's not an occult group. On the other hand, if you're looking to get noticed by an actual occult group, you're more likely to be pulled from GD, OTO, or even IOT than from DKMU, because they're probably looking at the old houses more than the newbie upstarts. Another thing to think about is that at some point, if you haven't been initiated into an actual occult group yet have managed to learn something real, your first offer probably won't be the type of offer you can realistically refuse. So if you want to have a choice, you'll probably need to be "proactive" and get someone's attention so that you have someone looking out for you, which is probably easiest to do from within an organization like OTO or IOT. [/purely hypothetical]
I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning. I'm not marching up to people demanding they share their deepest magical secrets. My efforts as of late have been to merely connect with practitioners and gain a bit knowledge of their perspective on the arts.
The "all magical information should be free" seems to be most heavily promoted by the 'psions' (sadly consisting of mostly 13-18 year olds and the occasional 30+). I agree that one should not be just handing out heavy weapons to small children. Just because something can be done does not mean that everyone should be having a go at doing it. I hope I have cleared up my position on the subject.
Back on the subject, though, my time actually in a magical order taught me that yes, if you are worth your salt, you should be looking at getting into a group or forming one, else someone (or thing) will come along and recruit you (forcefully or otherwise). I hadn't thought about including that, so thanks.
You seem to imply that you are a part of, or at least have knowledge of, "real occult groups". I don't suppose you'd be willing to tip your wine jug a little to sate the parched throats here?
>>12477 >I think you may have misinterpreted my meaning.
My posting was aimed at two goals: illustrating the interpersonal/group dynamic in the occult world as I perceive it, and giving a very brief perspective on what it means to join an occult order or not. The first part used your experiences as a lead-in, so I'm sorry if it seemed like I was criticizing your behavior, but what I was trying to do was point out that the same kinds of self-defense processes underlie all interactions involving power, regardless of how respectful those interactions superficially appear to be. To be clear, suspicion is the order of the day. You don't have to demand anything to get people's hackles up; if your spiritual inclinations are different from theirs, that's reason enough for them to be wary of you and your intentions. Some of them will be even more nervous if you're nice about it. The reactions of certain Native Americans regarding white people seeking to learn about native spirituality are an easily examined example of this.
>I hope I have cleared up my position on the subject.
I have mixed feelings, both idealistic and pragmatical stances on this issue. The idea I really wanted to get across, though, was that there are important systemic reasons that the hacker-ethic-as-applied-to-magic will be marginalized, and so the positions of specific individuals such as you or I are largely irrelevant. At this point in history, acting in accordance with the hacker ethic is simply a terrible idea, both intrinsically as with weapons and small children, and socially as with the preservation of power dynamic mentioned previously.
>if you are worth your salt, you should be looking at getting into a group
There are advantages and disadvantages to be weighed. Groups can offer accumulated knowledge and relative safety from other groups, but in group dynamics there are typically social forces in place which serve to keep members of the group from excelling beyond the group standard. This can be seen easily in most American/British schools, for example, in which academic talent is mocked, or where girls feel pressured to appear dumber than the boys. Similarly, if the group has a hierarchy, even a meritocratic hierarchy, there will typically be a pressure for newer members not to outdo older members, just as a student challenging a professor will cause problems. Unlike the academia analogy, breaking these social rules in occult groups is often something you can only do once.
>You seem to imply that you are a part of, or at least have knowledge of, "real occult groups". I don't suppose you'd be willing to tip your wine jug a little
I guess I didn't imply clearly enough. My basic claim here is that the power dynamics at work in the mundane world also apply to the occult world (although by virtue of being hidden, the dynamics in the occult world have the opportunity to play out in much less pleasant ways than they do in the mundane world). Having said that, there are some good places to look at in the mundane world, because the observations of mundane power dynamics are a good guideline to what occult power dynamics look like.
For a very long time the nuclear club (states possessing nuclear weapons) has been fairly stable. The big five are the US, Russia, the UK, France, and China. More recently India and Pakistan have acquired nuclear weapons, and Israel probably has them but doesn't want to talk about it. The very recent concerns are North Korea and Iran. If you want a good first approximation of what a real occult group's reaction to an unaligned individual or new group gaining occult power would be, look at the the reaction of the big five to the possibility that NK or Iran will soon have functional nuclear weapons. There are some differences where the analogy breaks down: the governments of the big five do not appear to have undetectable methods of assassinating the leaders of NK or Iran, and if they did use such methods the rest of the world would notice, nuclear tests cannot generally slip by unnoticed by others, and the only real difference between a nuclear power and a non-nuclear power is possession of a magic ingredient (enriched uranium or weapons grade plutonium). Now imagine for a second that these differences are suspended - any of the big five can make an attempt on NK or Iran's leaders lives that no one will see; if they're successful the media will not report it; there's no magic ingredient and (almost) anyone can make a nuclear weapon if they know how and work really hard; and you won't necessarily know who has successfully made one even once they've tested it. How would that hypothetical world look different from the one we live in now?
If you can extrapolate from this visualization into other areas of geopolitics, espionage etc, you should begin to get a good general understanding of how the occult world works. It should become apparent why I said that none of the organizations mentioned in this thread are the real occult groups at work in the world, and I'd hope it would be obvious that/why I'm not going to talk in anything but generalities about these things. If I'm really lucky, you should even be able to see the answer to that overused trump card of the so-called skeptics - why the Randi prize has never been claimed. It all pretty much flows from the same starting point.
The "Ice Magick wars" of the IOT strike me as being plausible events, coming from the worldview I have outlined. There are two things about it that make me think that the people involved are not exactly the movers and shakers of the occult underworld, however: firstly, as far as I can tell no one died; secondly, the issue was "resolved" without a decisive crushing defeat for either party and yet people can say whatever they want to about it without getting death threats or other such incentives to shut up.
I'm not saying that mainstream orgs like the IOT won't have any real magicians in them, rather that mainstream orgs will not compromise orgs of real magicians. Think of how the Earth/Animal Liberation Front has to recruit from mainstream AR/Environmental orgs, and you'll get the picture. GD, OTO, IOT will all claim access to the inner mysteries, but they are all part of the outer temple system. And the inner temple doesn't get spoken of in public - the occult is still occulted. I'm sure as hell not going to break silence, and if you ever see anyone claiming to break silence there are two main logical assessments of them - they're either wrong and they don't know wtf they're talking about, or they do know what they're talking about and they can get away with it because they can hold their own against the established houses (the equivalent of the India/Pakistan nuclearizing event). To judge if the latter is the case is a much more complicated problem.
I might regret explaining so much in the morning, but... *sigh*... I have but one love in my life and magic is it. How good it feels to talk about it, even vaguely.
Magicfag here. I was in the IOT for five years. Nobody really knows anything. You'll do a lot of group rituals, drugs and probably get laid some but nobody's playing with anything real. Mostly people acting spooky or powerful and expecting other people to humor them in these delusions. There are some nice people but it's the same as any occult organization: a bunch of delusional tards more interested than in-group hierarchy than actual spiritual progress. The only real occult school is the world. That's not to say that you can't learn stuff from these organizations, but they're toys, all of them. The only real occult school is the world.
>>12496 For the most part, as far as I know, yes, save for (maybe) small factions within IOT. The only one mentioned that I know is not is Omnimancy, and it's more of a... cabal? Than a full blown order.
All of the heavier stuff I know has little or no physical component to it.
>>12491 Thank you for all that you have posted, it's been excellent reading and given me a good deal to think about, as well as some perspective. I have mixed thoughts about whether or not I really want the attention of a group you imply, but doubt I'll be deserving for some time yet so no real worries I guess.
Ironic, that when I formed a research group and among the admission critera was "If I do not like you, or get a bad vibe about it, you will not be recruited," a founding member of the exterior group complained that it was a rather kid's-club rule. I think it's probably a standard criteria for admission into such things, after all if you can't trust someone, you can't really do much meaningful work with them... Just keep that in mind if you set out to find some people to work with. Do not settle for someone or something, do not lower your standards if you find that no one meets them; you'll likely only end up hurting yourself. </experience>
>>12492 Invisiglyph. I am very interested in what you have to say, and even more interested in what you will not speak of. I believe you may be someone I have been searching for.
I have a question, though it is not necessarily an answer that I seek...
The occult ones you have described seem to have power equal to our greater than the political, religious and social leaders of this world. They also seem to have a greater freedom to use this power, as they do not have to act out in the open to do so. Why, then, do they act as the base humans they claim to hate, huddling together in comfort rather than acting to change the world, to guide humanity toward awareness and understanding? It is true that this is a daunting task, and that many humans may never forsake their passionate ignorance. Why, then, do the ones whom you speak of not change the balance of power, rewrite the framework into one more conducive toward those like them? I know there are many who choose to remain ignorant, who choose to cling to this ignorance and manipulate others into even greater ignorance. So many of those who are manipulated, though, are not at fault. They are taken unaware, cast into the light and programmed to fear the dark.
In other words, why do these powerful people sit quietly as the ignorant enslave the majority of humanity?
>In other words, why do these powerful people sit quietly as the ignorant enslave the majority of humanity?
I'm not the poster you were referring to, but I think I can possibly shed some light on this. To certain illuminated people it does not matter if most people are ignorant. They don't really care if most people are ignorant. The illuminated people will rise and go beyond and save themselves, or be helped along during the illuminated individual's daily life and influences. Why bother saving those who cannot save themselves? Also, you seem to assume that the rulers of the world do not come from secret illuminated groups. Look at Freemasonry, and Skull and Bones for instance. There are plenty of rulers who are illuminated and use the herd's ignorance to gain more power. But most average illuminated individuals do not desire such high power and would rather just be in control of their own lives and the things affecting them in their day to day life. There isn't room for everyone at the top. So some choose to simply work on a scale than most. What their goals or intents are ultimately decide that those works will be. Whether it is to help people, control them, or whatever their goal may be.
>>12530 Starting a new thread so as to not derail this one too much more.
>>12531 New thread
On topic; Does anyone have any experience with members of TOPY?
No. 10971 - Invisiglyph - October 31st, 2009 - 9:40 AM
>>12500 My experience has been that the old adage "When the student is ready the teacher will appear" is just wishful thinking. The first time my mentor appeared to me I wasn't ready, and I fucked it up. Also, keep in mind that from the group's perspective your decisions are more controllable/predictable if you don't think you'e ready. So whether your strategy is to be noticed and invited, to be noticeable and given respectful distance, or to be small and insignificant - you need to make yourself ready. (Don't put your hopes on not being noticed - even if the groups of human magicians aren't looking, there are other things that will notice you; they notice all of us.)
>>12528 I'm not a real magician. I'm just some headcase posting paranoid drivel to an anonymous image board. <Hypothetical> tags all 'round. Take my words as an unusual exercise in logic, if you want to take them at all.
>>12523 >even more interested in what you will not speak of.
Look, it's just specifics, and frankly, the specifics won't help you much. What are you really going to do with the information if I were to tell you the name of an occult order, what their internal culture is like and how to recognize them by their symbols? Go contact someone in the order and get painfully interrogated, have your family threatened and maybe get killed? Yeah, not helpful. By the time you can make use of such information safely, you ought to have developed the ability to find out that kind of info on your own.
I've almost always found principles to be more useful than specifics, and although there are some principles I won't talk about either, the principles of thinking I just posted about are more valuable than most specifics I happen to know about. Assume something unobvious to be true (eg - the existence of occult orders, hell the existence of magic at all), take everything else you know about how the world works and use it to come up with an explanation about how such an unobvious thing could be true and yet widely disbelieved. Using this method, you can reason your way from knowing nothing about it to having some grasp of what's probably going on. Some of your possibilities will even be testable, and then you've got yourself some specifics.
>In other words, why do these powerful people sit quietly as the ignorant enslave the majority of humanity?
I've been typing up a response, but it sucks - it's not concise or sharp, and I haven't been inspired about how to make it flow, and it needs serious editing. It won't come today, because it's Halloween, and once I finish breakfast I need to spend all day and all night looking for something on the edge of life and death. But if I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll post it then.
>>12575 I'm not dead, but I did experience something that might have been a warning to shut up. I'm looking to confirm or refute this possibility before going further. Sorry. In the meantime, use of the principle I spoke of already should be helpful. (Extrapolate to all conceivable extents)