LuinbarielRegular - Wednesday, September 15th, 2010 - 10:39 PM
Tarot decks have become ridiculously diverse in the last couple of years. Not long ago, it was hard to find anything other than the Rider-Waite (or variations thereof). Now, the tarot enthusiast has what seems like hundreds of choices in as many styles.
What does the board think of this? I have heard (and participated) in much argument over "which is better", and wondered what the general stance on this idea was here.
Do you think a specific deck is better than another? If so, why? Do you think older decks are better (such as the Rider-Waite) or that they are too restrictive?
Personally I don't care much about what deck I'm using, so long as I'm able to connect to the symbols at hand. I understand that the Rider-Waite deck is heavy in symbolism and interpretations thereof, but I don't understand the devotion to it.
That said, I'm not too fond of some new decks either, which seem to have no learning curve and appear to be marketed towards people more interested in scaring each other than learning any sort of skill. However that does not mean I think they are unable to get results; in the right hands, I think any deck can get results.
I'm kind of wondering why there really isn't a free online tarot reader by now. Does it really require the human touch/interpretation?
I was once trying to purchase a deck and Rider-Waite seemed the standard, but I canceled for two reasons. 1. They were so many variations of it in printed quality and color/artwork. 2. Apparently there were a set of original symbols that were much more stick-figury and had little things in the background that were relevant somehow.
Nothing off the top of my head but imagine seeing 5 orbs in the background that's supposed to stand for something in your reading. Instead they just focus more on the foreground object/character.
Let me know, I know nothing about it.
No. 229 - Luinbariel - September 16th, 2010 - 8:35 AM
There are free online readers at the moment. I don't think it REQUIRES a human touch, but that the human touch (and experience) makes a reading far easier to relate to. It's a bit like reading a horoscope in the newspaper; impersonal. But if someone is talking with you directly and able to use their own experiences in life to help you better understand what's in store, then I think the reading is a little better.
I'm a little confused by what you're asking at the end of your post though. I know there are many variations of the Rider-Waite, including versions that are more simplistic and stick-figurey than others. Usually they have more awesome coloring as well.
While I sincerely doubt that this is actually /why/ people haven't made an online Tarot reader (I've honestly no clue if that's the case), it should be noted that there is no "true randomness" when it comes to programs and scripts, because the algorithms that define these generators (classed as being "pseudorandom") are necessarily constrained by automated arithmetic principles. That's my understanding of them, anyway: I was only a CompSci major for two years, so I could well be off-base there.
In any case, while I haven't experimented with an automated Tarot reader, I think Luin would most likely be right - a human reader is capable of making semantic connections between the cards' manifold meanings and how they relate to the querent's life far better than a computer can (although that said, I imagine you could create a program that gives an accurate "cold reading", with some expertise).
That's true, I didn't even think about the mathematics behind the online reader versions. I only know that I've played with them a few times and have never had results that were satisfactory. It never... and I know this isn't exactly scientific or specific... FEELS right. It never clicks as an actual reading the way it does when I or someone else handles the actual cards themselves.
That being said, some folks I've had professional readings from are actually quite terrible and I would prefer an automated service over them. I just don't understand how they get so far doing that for a living when what they say is nonsense.
Automatic services do just what you would expect of them. They barf the most popular meaning of the cards at you. Sure, you can have presets. You choose "love question", then it gives you the love-related symbolism.
A real reader is able to see and understand the person in front of him. He will read the cards depending of numbers of factors. Factors that no machine is able to replicate accurately. Unless you make the user go through a checklist, which would be both painful and boring. It would also remove all of the "magic" behind the act.
Some readers do just that however. They barf the meanings of the cards at you. I see those a lot on 4chan's /x/. They just repeat the same things you have heard times and times again.
When a good reader pops on /x/, you notice it. The readings are as long as this post, they relate to the person asking the person and most important, the reading is tainted with the experience of the reader.
I wonder if the Rider-Waite is the most popular because it is the best documented or if it is the best documented because it gained so much popularity. It became in a lot of people's mind the only "right" tarot, with some set symbols and representations.
My current tarot deck is Rider-Waite based deck, but with different artwork and some symbols that resonate with me better the the "original" version of it (to which I have a personal aversion).
I tried the Thoth deck and just couldn't read it. I don't know if it was the symbolism of the color scheme, or the fact that it was a hand me down and had some of that person's energy clinging to it. But I didn't connect to it, in any case.
My main reading deck is not Rider-Waite, it's not even Tarot... I like the Oracles deck that have started becoming available on the market. Some of them are incredibly bad, but some work beautifully.
I would do readings on here but like Hermit, I don't know if I'd be rated good or not.
I don't have the time for now though, not for a week or two. Then I may consider it. I have read on /x/ under my name before as well and usually get good results, but I've also seen the readers that a previous poster was talking about; the ones that just spew common results. It drives me insane.
Sure. Online tarot is different, but once you get used to it, you find out that it's way easier than face to face tarot.
Let's say I end up drawing some very perplexing cards. I can ponder on them as long as I want and no one would ever know.
Face to face however, people expect you to be a real mystery machine. They want to hear the meaning in the first few seconds.
Sometime I wish I had a crystal ball I could stare on when my mind goes blank! Haha...
Doing readings on here however, meh... On 4chan's /x/, I do them from time to time because they just dissipate after an hour to a day. On here they would stay for ages, and to me a reading should be something that you hear and HAVE to remember. Your mind elaborate upon it. It grows on you. Icecream for the brain. Short and sweet.
That's an interesting point of view that I have not considered before. I know that, from my side, I always try to "release" the reading, not to dwell on it once it's been given to the person am i reading to (either online or face to face). Because that message/reading was meant for them and not for me.
But I had never considered how the record kept of the answer might affect the one who asked...
However I think it can be, in some cases, something comforting. Just like the online reading gives you time to ponder the cards in peace, I think reading over the answer can help the one asking assimilate it and the imperfect nuances each reader convey in their writing.
When performing a divination with Tarot for myself, I tend to draw the cards, write down the cards and their varied meanings, then I write down my interpretation of what the reading might be suggesting. Sometimes when I'm paging back through older divinations, I notice something (in hindsight) that the cards may have referred to, and append that to the reading. Notions of subjective validation and pareidolia aside, I find it's a pretty good system.
Thus far, I own a Rider-Waite deck, a Thoth deck, an "Archetypes" deck (by Caroline Myss), and my own made-up archetype deck written on subway tickets. I really want the Housewives' Tarot, for the sheer what-the-fuckery of it. I only tend to use the Rider-Waite Tarot purely because it's the one I'm most familiar with, but I'd like to make a much better organised, more methodical deck of my own. I'm not a purist by any means, but as much as I prefer Waite's reordering of the deck, I still feel a little iffy about Justice and Strength being switcheroo'd; it feels a little clumsy, almost.
We could turn this into an interesting experiment, if you like. A bunch of us could privately email readings to you, and then you can post them up when they've all been received, and we'll see how closely each of our readings match. Would you be up for something like that? And would other Tarot-readers here be up for it too?
If possible, it'd be great if you could provide us with something personal so we can identify you as the querent in our readings, like your name, birthday, photo - pretty much anything that you've been told not to give out to strangers on the internet. If you're a pretty handsome dude, I've found that nude pics tend to work best. Just sayin'.
No. 352 - Luinbariel - September 28th, 2010 - 8:55 AM
Any further details would likely compromise our crazy fortune-teller powers, so don't tell us any more than what you have already. However, the cards are already telling me that you should grow a goatee and spike your hair up at the front, because you'd suit it, and they're asking if you're a homo and single. Such whimsical things, the cards~~~
So, the details for our little experiment:
o) Over the next week, anyone who is interested in doing a reading for TheSeventh must announce their intention to do so here, as well as stating whether they're going to do a General Reading or a Love-Life reading (or both).
o) Don't flake out; if you say you're gonna do a reading, do one. Flaking out might make you look like a flaky cunt. No-one likes flaky cunts except necrophiliacs.
o) The reader must then perform the reading(s). For maximum awesome, it'd be great if you could mention what layout/spread/throw you're using (Celtic cross, past-present-future three-card-draw, etc), name what cards come up (e.g., "Reversed 4 of Pentacles"), in which position ("Reversed 4 of pentacles in the "Near Future"), what that card means to you ("Possession, greed, accumulation, miserliness"), and what significance you believe it may have in TheSeventh's life ("...which may show that you're clinging to material comforts too much in your present situation.")
o) Send your reading via Email to TheSeventh: you can get his email address by right-clicking his name two posts above and selecting "Copy Email Address", then just paste it into a new email. DO NOT POST YOUR READINGS HERE: that could well compromise or influence other folks' interpretations and readings. Remember to include your name from Sanctuary just so we know who's who.
o) A week from now, on October 6th, TheSeventh posts the readings he's been mailed in this thread (or in a new thread on /ml/, if a Mod or Admin wants him to).
o) We copiously analyse our own readings in terms of other peoples' and try to build it into a concrete whole, which is totally not basically an exercise in pareidolia. Totally not. Not even a little bit. But it will be fun, so wheesht.
SacredCow, if our experiment goes well, we'll do one for you too - heck, we could make it a regular thing, perhaps.
In any case, this is me expressing my interest in the experiment, and I'm going to be doing both a General reading and a Love Life reading - I'll get it done and email you it before Friday. Don't be surprised if the latter turns up The Devil (Goat imagery -> Goet) and The Lovers, yo.
Grrrrrooovy. Okay, TheSeventh: could you post up everyone's readings now? I figure the best way to do it is to paste one reading, then give your own commentary on how effective you feel it was, then at the end, sum up how you felt about the whole experiment/whose you thought was relevant, and we can all babblewank on from there.
Posting these in the order I received them.
From Luinbariel, using the mystic tarot deck
1. The first position represents you. It talks about who you are at the
moment, what's going on with you and how it's making you feel.
Here is the nine of swords. This tells me that you're in a time of
conflict, a time where everything inside you is roiling around,
battering you on all sides. There is a lot of anxiety floating around
you, or at least it seems to be floating around you; however the biggest
key here is that there is a little guilt fueling the whole thing. You
know that you've had a hand in what's going on around you, and that's a
big part of the anxiety for some reason. Whatever is on your mind has a
good, firm grip on you because you're afraid that you won't be able to
proceed or to change what you've already partially created. Don't forget
that you had something to do with it though, or you'll never solve it.
2. This position represents the issue that is crossing you, or what's in
the way that's keeping you from getting past all that anxiety.
Here is the Hierophant. This implies a few things to me; firstly, others
don't really know how much you're suffering or how anxious you are.
You've kept most of it inside with some impressive damage control, but
this leads to the second implication I see here. You've been thinking
and rationalizing a lot of what's been going on for a long time,
internalizing it until it's become a bit of a science to you. You know,
or think you know, exactly what happened to get you so riled up, how it
happened, and any other detail that might be involved. You're trying to
take the emotional part of your experiences and are turning it into an
intellectual pursuit. DON'T. Don't go too far either way or you aren't
getting past what's going on. You're missing something important by
studying the details so minutely; take a step back and think about the
big picture as well as all the pieces it's made of.
3. This position is about how others view yourself and your issue.
Here's the Devil, which is kind of amusing.
I'm seeing that others around you may not know the entire picture, but
they feel that you're afraid to let go and to experience something
that's quite normal, a part of human life. In their eyes, you're a
little afraid of admitting that there's a part of you that's just the
same as everyone else, just as basic and normal and human. You don't
want it to be true and feel as though it's a pretty nasty thing to be;
in a way, you think that you're above it or that it somehow does not
apply to you, but I think that's a part of the Hierophant's influence.
If someone studies something too closely, they can often gain a sense of
superiority over it, to feel as though they have conquered it.
People around you are aware to some degree what's going on with you, no
matter how hard you've tried to hide it. I suspect you've got a friend
that's a lot closer than you take them for, or that you haven't noticed
just how much they actually know about you. I don't get the feeling that
they... care all that deeply, as rude as that sounds, but they are aware
and watching you to see what you do.
4. This position is about why you appear this way to others, and here we
have the seven of pentacles.
It seems as though the root of this whole problem is a bit of a
cross-roads. A time has come for you when a difficult decision is
required; do you keep going ahead with the road you've been on thus far
or do you ditch everything and start over again? I'm guessing that you
made a pretty critical mistake in some area of your life (or that you
feel it's a mistake, even though it may not have been) and that this has
cast the shadow of doubt so far over you, you can't even tell if
daylight still exists. It's become a question of whether or not to put
hope on the line and go looking for the sun again.
This is why others are seeing you as they do in the Devil; to them, it's
not a choice of finding something that has been lost of repairing
something that you feel you've broken; it's a matter of admitting it was
there all along. They see you running from it and struggling with it,
rather pointlessly since it is a part of being human.
5. This is meant to represent the recent past. Usually it is said that
this must be forgotten before you can move on, but I like to say that it
has to be dealt with, not forgotten. That's a little more productive.
Here is the three of cups. Usually this talks about a new time of
emotional happiness and promise, like a new relationship becoming more
stable and solid, the birth of a child, that sort of thing. But in this
case I'd say it was an idea or ideal that you'd found and that you were
able to attach yourself to. You'd been looking for awhile for something
like this, something that could fulfill a bit of a void that you had
perceived in your life. This tells me that you found it and it fit
really well. There was much promise of many great things to come because
of this ideal you'd found a home in, which is probably pretty related;
I'm guessing the ideal, idea or perception you attached to let you down
pretty hard and faster than you imagined it would. That's likely where a
lot of this doubt is coming from.
It's important to realize that the three is a beginning; it implies that
there is much more to come, and it's a good bet that some of what's
coming will be "bad" (such as what's going on now).
6. Here's the near future! This is usually what can be achieved in the
not too distant future if you can deal with the past effectively.
The ace of wands tells me that you're looking at a new surge of energy
and creative feelings. This is the possibility that what's going on here
will be dealt with in such a way that it will open new doors and
ESPECIALLY new confidence in yourself to open and walk through those
doors. There is going to be a drive in you that's going to feel like you
eat coal for breakfast and shit diamonds by desert, because you can
literally do anything, IF you can just find somewhere to apply all that
drive and energy.
It's important to remember that this is also a beginning, and to think
about what got you in this current conundrum in the first place; don't
make the same mistakes twice.
7. Here is how your situation will be, a sort of look at the future you.
It talks about how the situation we're reading for will progress for you
and how you'll change through it.
This is the page of cups. The current stickiness is past by this point,
left behind you at least for now. You appear to have achieved the drive
in the ace of wands a little while ago and have perhaps come down from
that high. You are able to see that you can perhaps find love for
something like you did for that ideal/idea in the past and are
considering a similar path again. This is often not a bad card because
you can fall in love and be happy again, but I don't see a positive
ending to this one. I get the feeling that you are on the verge of
making the same mistake again, thinking that you've learned your lesson
and that you've come out a better person for it when you actually
haven't. You've become enamored with the image of who you think you have
become through all of this and have to take a step back. Be careful.
8. How others will view your situation in this future, what they'll
think of what's going on.
The four of cups. Others will be talking about you, gossiping and saying
all sorts of things to your face and even more behind your back. I get
the strong sense that you won't be shy about letting people know who you
are and what you believe this time, and they've got a few things to say
about it. However the problem isn't necessarily what's being said,
because a lot of it is likely to be true. The problem is going to be
with how you deal with it. They're saying things that you know are true
but that you don't want to admit to yourself. You're already
dissatisfied with the route you're taking and they know it better than
Be careful and listen to rumors like that, or little whispers in the
darkness here and there; they've got some good lesson sin them for you,
and can be a good guideline that you've gone too far.
9. Here's your hopes and fears. It's possible to have both in one card
since we can both hope for and be afraid of something at the same time.
The ten of wands suggests what may seem a little counter-intuitive; it's
a hope for a time in which you realize you've taken on too much, and
have bitten off more than you can chew. You want to experience that kind
of realization to feel as though you've achieved at least something,
that perhaps some good came out of all the things you wanted to be and
all the places you wanted to go. It's a fear because you don't know if
you'll be able to tackle them all, if you'll be able to get through it
all and come out cleanly on the other side. But it's a hope because you
at least want to be able to try.
Lastly, we have position number 10. Here we've got the representation of
the final outcome. If everything goes the way the cards say that it
will, this is what is most likely to happen.
Here is the High Priestess. To me the outcome is pretty clear; all of
the struggling, both with your own views on yourself and those of
others, are going to drive you into a deeper spiritual realm than you've
pursued before. There's going to be a more in-depth search than the
situation you just got yourself out of; no more quick fixes, no more
speedy answers, and no more ignoring yourself in the process. This is
the beginning of something more intense, the thing you've actually been
searching for rather than the one shining ideal that seemed to imitate
it. It'll seem a little less shiny and amazing, but that's only because
you don't know much about it yet.
1. My parents recently divorced a few months back, I feel responsible in some ways maybe I should have been a stronger son.
2.I have a problem with keeping things on the inside, somehow I have deadened myself to everyone. I only show emotion in the way that I think I should not because I feel it.
3. Being like this, I for some reason can only imitate normal behavior. Maybe some see through it. I have lost who I was in the persona's, I even forgot who I was. Unsure on the friend thing, we'll see on that one
4.I can see that, I think it has to do with me opening my self back up to the world and discovering who I am
5.I started exploring religions, I have read about just about every religion or practice. I was really into spirits and astral projection thinking I would find answers. In the end all religions or beliefs are the same there is no real answer. I have nothing to believe or hope for anymore
Not really what to say about the rest of the reading.
In general this was a very close reading, they all were in their own way. This one seemed to focus on my inner self, it is very hard to take in all of these readings. They are all great but very overwhelming when together.
Tommorow is Goet's
No. 16594 - GoetSorceror - October 20th, 2010 - 7:45 AM
S'been tomorrow for about five days, dude. Hop to it, already! >:U
>>16612 YOU RELAX! CALM DOWN! STOP SHOUTING! I guess we'll have to wait for Seventh to give us the 411.
Actually, I think I'd be down for an experimentation group... although, why don't we go whole hog and make an Order for /Sorc/-related research for the sake of research (Sorceresearch! Actually, not that, it sounds awful), and have the Tarot experiments as a distinct thread therein? We could experiment with astral projection, simultaneous evocation, shared/group sigils, servitor relays, Use-Divination-To-Figure-Out-A-Secret trials, and so on.
Mm, I reckon you could be right. There's no reason that /sorc/ itself couldn't be the board for Occult Experiment threads that aren't linked by anything except who tends to participate and what topics tend to be covered, so making an Order for it could end up being redundant (unless of course, being part of an Order that exists solely to shake things up and experiment lots spurred enough interest and created enough drive that people would actually get out there and dabble; but really, /sorc/ could do that just as well as a formal order). Truthfully, I think I'd like an Order that's kind of like the League, but with a greater focus on occult experimentation rather than sheer discussion, but unless there's demand for it, I reckon /sorc/'s a good enough venue.